From pluto at projectpluto.com Sun Jul 12 13:41:59 2020 From: pluto at projectpluto.com (Bill Gray) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 13:41:59 -0400 Subject: [neo_followup] Another request for artsat obs : 2010-050B = Chang'e 2 booster Message-ID: <77ac5587-9c78-98cb-7889-6e2313827a0c@projectpluto.com> Hello all, As promised... second of two requests for observations of artsats. Both this bit of junk and the spacecraft it took past the moon have been observed over the last ten years. The booster has been a frequent object on NEOCP, and there would usually be no real point in targeted observations; you can normally count on somebody to observe it just in the natural course of things. However, the object went past the moon on May 25 and got kicked into a higher orbit, at lowish elongations. Our last observations were from (Y00) SONEAR on 19 May. The object is around mag 21 as I write this, and only 70 degrees from the sun. It will get brighter and further from the sun over the coming week, then zip past us at perigee on the 19th, briefly reaching mag 11 or so and spending about 20 minutes in the earth's shadow. After that, it'll be unobservably close to the sun until the next perigee sometime around 23 October. The trajectory at that point is quite vague... which is why some data over the next week would _really_ help a lot. It's possible that after the October perigee, the object will go directly into heliocentric orbit. Or it may make one more orbit and then go into heliocentric orbit. Or we may be stuck with it for another ten years, or (very unlikely) it might re-enter the atmosphere and burn up. To get ephemerides, cut and paste this e-mail (or at least the astrometry below) into https://www.projectpluto.com/fo.htm and set your location, observing time span, desired quantities, etc. I think it'll be somewhat brighter than the ephemerides indicate, but that's also uncertain; we don't have an accurate brightness model for the object. I think the ephems should be good to arcminutes. But the (unpredictable non-grav) force is strong with this one; it may be further off than that. Thanks! -- Bill 2010-050B KC2020 04 27.37656 09 56 14.28 +04 10 21.3 19.1 Vq Q62 2010-050B KC2020 04 27.38002 09 56 13.74 +04 10 14.2 19.0 Vq Q62 2010-050B KC2020 04 28.11366 10 00 24.54 +03 18 59.5 18.9 Vq H06 2010-050B KC2020 04 28.37124 10 02 15.28 +03 35 40.4 19.0 Vq Q62 2010-050B KC2020 04 28.37525 10 02 14.67 +03 35 32.4 19.0 Vq Q62 C16HTZ1 C2020 04 30.17635 10 12 21.29 +02 07 31.8 18.8 GV 703 C16HTZ1 C2020 04 30.18156 10 12 20.72 +02 07 21.0 19.3 GV 703 C16HTZ1 C2020 04 30.18679 10 12 20.09 +02 07 09.2 18.7 GV 703 C16HTZ1 C2020 04 30.19200 10 12 19.52 +02 06 57.3 19.2 GV 703 S512398* C2020 05 19.02390 13 56 05.30 -16 30 44.8 ~5J45 16.9 RqNEOCPY00 S512398 C2020 05 19.02488 13 56 06.60 -16 30 57.0 ~5J45 16.9 RqNEOCPY00 S512398 C2020 05 19.02586 13 56 07.84 -16 31 02.2 ~5J45 16.9 RqNEOCPY00 S512398 C2020 05 19.08069 13 57 14.36 -16 39 00.0 ~5J45 16.4 RqNEOCPY00 S512398 C2020 05 19.08114 13 57 14.92 -16 39 03.3 ~5J45 16.5 RqNEOCPY00 S512398 C2020 05 19.08164 13 57 15.54 -16 39 07.3 ~5J45 16.4 RqNEOCPY00 S512398 C2020 05 19.08213 13 57 16.23 -16 39 11.1 ~5J45 16.6 RqNEOCPY00 S512398 C2020 05 19.08261 13 57 16.73 -16 39 14.1 ~5J45 16.9 RqNEOCPY00 From pluto at projectpluto.com Sat Jul 18 09:58:27 2020 From: pluto at projectpluto.com (Bill Gray) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 09:58:27 -0400 Subject: [neo_followup] L1533N1 = puzzler on NEOCP Message-ID: <0a584703-beba-da65-9578-8ca380da9ee0@projectpluto.com> Hello all, (W16) Pleasant Groves Observatory in Alabama posted this object a couple of days ago, and (033) Karl Schwarzschild Observatory posted some follow-up observations made 18 hours later. The observations fit nicely together for a q=0.84 +/- 0.07 AU object. (W16) has now posted its followup, and you can't fit all the data together into one orbit. Of the three arcs -- (W16)'s discovery data, their follow-up, and (033)'s data -- any pair goes together with reasonable residuals for a NEO. But they can't all be right. I can't even offer an opinion as to which; both sets of follow-up observations look completely plausible. My guess is that somebody did follow-up without dithering their pointing, and thereby got "observations" of a hot pixel or similar camera defect. Consider this next comment to be written in fiery letters in the sky, or at least in all-caps: PLEASE DITHER YOUR TELESCOPE'S POINTING. "Observations" of this sort are not just wrong; they're convincing enough to get everybody else looking in the wrong place. Please... I beg of you... think of the children... every time you don't dither your pointing, an angel cries and Satan laughs... -- Bill From adoppler at gmx.net Sat Jul 18 16:46:43 2020 From: adoppler at gmx.net (Andreas Doppler) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 22:46:43 +0200 Subject: [neo_followup] {MPML} L1533N1 = puzzler on NEOCP In-Reply-To: References: <0a584703-beba-da65-9578-8ca380da9ee0@projectpluto.com> Message-ID: <06d0c778-75b6-4260-9173-a2981ed0cab2@gmx.net> These observations have also been reported as L1632N1*KC2020 07 16.23458 19 37 21.53 -14 20 00.0 20.5 GVNEOCPW16 L1632N1 KC2020 07 16.25041 19 37 20.47 -14 20 41.4 20.2 GVNEOCPW16 L1632N1 KC2020 07 16.26947 19 37 19.19 -14 21 30.6 19.6 GVNEOCPW16 L1632N1 KC2020 07 17.18340 19 37 10.19 -15 01 32.0 20.7 GVNEOCPW16 L1632N1 KC2020 07 17.20045 19 37 09.08 -15 02 18.6 20.3 GVNEOCPW16 L1632N1 KC2020 07 17.21736 19 37 07.97 -15 03 04.1 20.1 GVNEOCPW16 L1632N1 KC2020 07 17.23762 19 37 06.56 -15 03 58.9 18.7 GVNEOCPW16 L1632N1 KC2020 07 17.25517 19 37 05.38 -15 04 44.5 20.4 GVNEOCPW16 L1632N1 KC2020 07 17.27276 19 37 04.19 -15 05 30.4 19.5 GVNEOCPW16 On 18.07.20 22:03, Daniel Parrott wrote: > ? ?? L1533N1 KC2020 07 16.23458 19 37 21.53 -14 20 00.0? ? ? ? ? 20.5 G? ? ? W16 > ? ? ?L1533N1 KC2020 07 16.25041 19 37 20.47 -14 20 41.4? ? ? ? ? 20.2 G? ? ? W16 > ? ? ?L1533N1 KC2020 07 16.26947 19 37 19.19 -14 21 30.6? ? ? ? ? 19.6 G? ? ? W16 > ? ? ?L1533N1 KC2020 07 17.18340 19 37 10.19 -15 01 32.0? ? ? ? ? 20.5 G? ? ? W16 > ? ? ?L1533N1 KC2020 07 17.20045 19 37 09.08 -15 02 18.5? ? ? ? ? 20.3 G? ? ? W16 > ? ? ?L1533N1 KC2020 07 17.21736 19 37 07.97 -15 03 04.1? ? ? ? ? 20.0 G? ? ? W16 > ? ? ?L1533N1 KC2020 07 17.23762 19 37 06.56 -15 03 58.9? ? ? ? ? 18.7 G? ? ? W16 > ? ? ?L1533N1 KC2020 07 17.25517 19 37 05.38 -15 04 44.5? ? ? ? ? 20.4 G? ? ? W16 > ? ? ?L1533N1 KC2020 07 17.27276 19 37 04.19 -15 05 30.4? ? ? ? ? 19.5 G? ? ? W16 > From marco.bs.it at gmail.com Sat Jul 18 18:15:18 2020 From: marco.bs.it at gmail.com (Marco Micheli) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 00:15:18 +0200 Subject: [neo_followup] {MPML} L1533N1 = puzzler on NEOCP In-Reply-To: <06d0c778-75b6-4260-9173-a2981ed0cab2@gmx.net> References: <0a584703-beba-da65-9578-8ca380da9ee0@projectpluto.com> <06d0c778-75b6-4260-9173-a2981ed0cab2@gmx.net> Message-ID: I just recovered L1533N1 from Z84, confirming that the code 033 observations are indeed mislinked. L1533N1 KC2020 07 18.90597419 36 46.539-16 19 44.83 19.9 G Z84 L1533N1 KC2020 07 18.91882019 36 45.777-16 20 21.94 20.2 G Z84 The observations also confirm the identity L1533N1 = L1632N1. I reported the pair of measurements to the MPC, let's hope the two get linked together manually by them. Marco On Sat, 18 Jul 2020 at 22:48, Andreas Doppler wrote: > > These observations have also been reported as > > L1632N1*KC2020 07 16.23458 19 37 21.53 -14 20 00.0 20.5 GVNEOCPW16 > L1632N1 KC2020 07 16.25041 19 37 20.47 -14 20 41.4 20.2 GVNEOCPW16 > L1632N1 KC2020 07 16.26947 19 37 19.19 -14 21 30.6 19.6 GVNEOCPW16 > L1632N1 KC2020 07 17.18340 19 37 10.19 -15 01 32.0 20.7 GVNEOCPW16 > L1632N1 KC2020 07 17.20045 19 37 09.08 -15 02 18.6 20.3 GVNEOCPW16 > L1632N1 KC2020 07 17.21736 19 37 07.97 -15 03 04.1 20.1 GVNEOCPW16 > L1632N1 KC2020 07 17.23762 19 37 06.56 -15 03 58.9 18.7 GVNEOCPW16 > L1632N1 KC2020 07 17.25517 19 37 05.38 -15 04 44.5 20.4 GVNEOCPW16 > L1632N1 KC2020 07 17.27276 19 37 04.19 -15 05 30.4 19.5 GVNEOCPW16 > > > On 18.07.20 22:03, Daniel Parrott wrote: > > L1533N1 KC2020 07 16.23458 19 37 21.53 -14 20 00.0 20.5 G W16 > > L1533N1 KC2020 07 16.25041 19 37 20.47 -14 20 41.4 20.2 G W16 > > L1533N1 KC2020 07 16.26947 19 37 19.19 -14 21 30.6 19.6 G W16 > > L1533N1 KC2020 07 17.18340 19 37 10.19 -15 01 32.0 20.5 G W16 > > L1533N1 KC2020 07 17.20045 19 37 09.08 -15 02 18.5 20.3 G W16 > > L1533N1 KC2020 07 17.21736 19 37 07.97 -15 03 04.1 20.0 G W16 > > L1533N1 KC2020 07 17.23762 19 37 06.56 -15 03 58.9 18.7 G W16 > > L1533N1 KC2020 07 17.25517 19 37 05.38 -15 04 44.5 20.4 G W16 > > L1533N1 KC2020 07 17.27276 19 37 04.19 -15 05 30.4 19.5 G W16 > > > > -- > neo_followup mailing list > neo_followup at projectpluto.com > http://projectpluto.com/mailman/listinfo/neo_followup_projectpluto.com From mtnsuzuki at nifty.com Sun Jul 19 03:15:03 2020 From: mtnsuzuki at nifty.com (Masayuki Suzuki) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 16:15:03 +0900 Subject: [neo_followup] {MPML} L1533N1 = puzzler on NEOCP In-Reply-To: <06d0c778-75b6-4260-9173-a2981ed0cab2@gmx.net> References: <0a584703-beba-da65-9578-8ca380da9ee0@projectpluto.com> <06d0c778-75b6-4260-9173-a2981ed0cab2@gmx.net> Message-ID: Hi Bill and all, I examined observations of L1533N1 by 033 in the NEOCP. It seems that at least 2 of 3 observatoins might be measurements of a faint fixed star in a crowded star field. In the DSS image (POSS2/ Red), there is a faint star near RA = 19h 36m 45.9s, dec = -14o 54' 33". This star is not listed in the USNO B1.0 star catalogue. The 1st and the 2nd obs by 033 are very close to this star. (1" north and 1" south respectively.) The 3rd obs is 5" south of the star. ( Another faint diffuse object is 4" south of the 3rd obs. The 3rd obs is near the avarage position of the star and the diffuse object. ) Best regards, Masayuki Suzuki From pluto at projectpluto.com Sun Jul 19 20:44:46 2020 From: pluto at projectpluto.com (Bill Gray) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2020 20:44:46 -0400 Subject: [neo_followup] EMM-Hope on its way to Mars Message-ID: <457793fa-9149-b82f-9614-c3d07e2a7dd9@projectpluto.com> Hello all, Just a note that this object has been launched, and the timing appears to match the pre-launch ephems on JPL Horizons. Ephems are at https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons.cgi Enter target body -62. The object(s) will be well placed in the morning sky for northern hemispherians. If the actual location doesn't quite match the pre-launch ephemerides, or if there's a booster or other hardware headed out to Mars as well, it may be more visible in a few hours as the object gets further from us. Any difference between the pre-launch theory and post-launch reality would, I'd expect, be a little less noticeable, if it's a matter of a slightly different launch time. -- Bill From 4099wiggins at gmail.com Mon Jul 20 05:47:49 2020 From: 4099wiggins at gmail.com (Patrick Wiggins) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 03:47:49 -0600 Subject: [neo_followup] {MPML} EMM-Hope on its way to Mars In-Reply-To: <457793fa-9149-b82f-9614-c3d07e2a7dd9@projectpluto.com> References: <457793fa-9149-b82f-9614-c3d07e2a7dd9@projectpluto.com> Message-ID: <3EC3BEAE-5917-459C-90AE-DE17583FD824@gmail.com> I just posted a 60 image animated GIF shot earlier today between 0812 and 0842 UT. It?s on my Facebook page and I think it can be seen by anyone: https://www.facebook.com/patrick.wiggins.71 patrick 718 > On 19 Jul 2020, at 18:44, Bill J. Gray wrote: > > Hello all, > > Just a note that this object has been launched, and > the timing appears to match the pre-launch ephems on JPL > Horizons. Ephems are at > > https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons.cgi > > Enter target body -62. The object(s) will be well > placed in the morning sky for northern hemispherians. > > If the actual location doesn't quite match the pre-launch > ephemerides, or if there's a booster or other hardware > headed out to Mars as well, it may be more visible in a > few hours as the object gets further from us. Any difference > between the pre-launch theory and post-launch reality would, > I'd expect, be a little less noticeable, if it's a matter > of a slightly different launch time. > > -- Bill > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. > > View/Reply Online (#35643): https://groups.io/g/mpml/message/35643 > Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/75673999/2702017 > -=-=- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Posts to this list or information found within may be freely used, with the stipulation that MPML and the originating author are cited as the source of the information. > -=-=- > Group Owner: mpml+owner at groups.io > Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/mpml/unsub [4099wiggins at gmail.com] > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > From pluto at projectpluto.com Mon Jul 20 20:23:52 2020 From: pluto at projectpluto.com (Bill Gray) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2020 20:23:52 -0400 Subject: [neo_followup] EMM (Hope) tracking : spacecraft, booster, two other objects Message-ID: <75b74f18-29dc-6722-1cf6-bf46302f9675@projectpluto.com> Hi folks, I've received astrometry from Masayaki Suzuki for the EMM booster, as seen from (U69) Auberry in California; from Peter Birtwhistle; and from another observer who would prefer I not distribute astrometry quite yet, as the data aren't quite final. But that extra data confirms that the following should produce good ephemerides. Peter got not only the booster, but the spacecraft and other objects all at close range. My guess is that the spacecraft and booster should be easy to find tonight, with the booster visible for days. The other objects are getting a little faint and are probably lost at this point. The booster data show some "maneuvering" as venting of leftover propellant (I assume) took place. Putting together Masayaki Suzuki's data with the last two observations from (J95) gets results that should be good to a few arcminutes. (Peter got plenty of earlier data, but the venting caused large residuals when combined with Masayuki's data.) Cut and paste the following into Find_Orb (on-line or "local"), and you should be able to generate ephemerides for the booster. (The program will automatically combine the 80-column and ADES data. I added some synthetic observations to help the program find the correct orbit.) https://www.projectpluto.com/temp/booster.txt The booster should be visible for the next few days. Similarly, you can cut-and-paste the following astrometry from Peter into Find_Orb to get ephems for the spacecraft. (Or you can use Horizons, which is only off by an arcminute or so.) https://www.projectpluto.com/temp/emm_sc.txt Peter tracked two additional objects that you'll need a good-sized scope to see now (about mag 21.5 and 22.2 at this point.) https://www.projectpluto.com/temp/emm3.txt https://www.projectpluto.com/temp/emm4.txt And Peter got four other objects, but they're down around mag 23 at this point, so I'd abandon all hope for them. -- Bill From 4099wiggins at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 03:07:28 2020 From: 4099wiggins at gmail.com (Patrick Wiggins) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 01:07:28 -0600 Subject: [neo_followup] {MPML} EMM (Hope) tracking : spacecraft, booster, two other objects In-Reply-To: <75b74f18-29dc-6722-1cf6-bf46302f9675@projectpluto.com> References: <75b74f18-29dc-6722-1cf6-bf46302f9675@projectpluto.com> Message-ID: <7B97E808-099C-478A-ACEB-5BDD948567F2@gmail.com> Hi Bill, I?ve measured hundreds of MPs but this is my first time measuring a spacecraft. Appended below are the data for most of the images I used to construct the animation I mentioned earlier. Again, first time measuring a spacecraft so I?ll not be offended if someone finds anything wrong with my data. patrick 718 > On 20 Jul 2020, at 18:23, Bill J. Gray wrote: > > Hi folks, > > I've received astrometry from Masayaki Suzuki for the EMM booster, as > seen from (U69) Auberry in California; from Peter Birtwhistle; and from > another observer who would prefer I not distribute astrometry quite yet, > as the data aren't quite final. But that extra data confirms that the > following should produce good ephemerides. > > Peter got not only the booster, but the spacecraft and other objects > all at close range. My guess is that the spacecraft and booster should be > easy to find tonight, with the booster visible for days. The other objects > are getting a little faint and are probably lost at this point. > > The booster data show some "maneuvering" as venting of leftover propellant > (I assume) took place. Putting together Masayaki Suzuki's data with the last > two observations from (J95) gets results that should be good to a few > arcminutes. (Peter got plenty of earlier data, but the venting caused > large residuals when combined with Masayuki's data.) Cut and paste the > following into Find_Orb (on-line or "local"), and you should be able to > generate ephemerides for the booster. (The program will automatically combine > the 80-column and ADES data. I added some synthetic observations to help the > program find the correct orbit.) EMM C2020 07 20.34929 00 37 55.15 +25 38 51.6 16.8 718 EMM C2020 07 20.34975 00 37 55.76 +25 39 07.1 17.1 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35021 00 37 56.34 +25 39 21.4 17.0 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35044 00 37 56.55 +25 39 29.7 16.9 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35066 00 37 56.82 +25 39 36.9 16.9 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35089 00 37 57.06 +25 39 44.7 16.9 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35134 00 37 57.62 +25 39 59.9 17.2 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35159 00 37 57.87 +25 40 07.4 17.1 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35204 00 37 58.39 +25 40 21.7 17.0 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35250 00 37 58.85 +25 40 36.6 17.1 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35273 00 37 59.16 +25 40 44.4 17.0 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35295 00 37 59.32 +25 40 52.6 17.1 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35318 00 37 59.59 +25 40 59.0 17.2 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35341 00 37 59.87 +25 41 05.9 17.1 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35363 00 38 00.09 +25 41 13.5 17.0 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35386 00 38 00.32 +25 41 20.7 17.0 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35409 00 38 00.54 +25 41 28.0 17.2 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35454 00 38 01.12 +25 41 42.9 17.0 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35477 00 38 01.30 +25 41 49.8 16.9 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35500 00 38 01.54 +25 41 56.5 16.9 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35523 00 38 01.77 +25 42 05.2 16.9 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35545 00 38 02.01 +25 42 11.6 17.1 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35568 00 38 02.28 +25 42 18.8 16.9 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35591 00 38 02.49 +25 42 27.2 17.2 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35615 00 38 02.78 +25 42 32.6 17.0 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35660 00 38 03.21 +25 42 47.6 17.1 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35706 00 38 03.66 +25 43 02.3 16.9 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35728 00 38 03.90 +25 43 10.2 17.0 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35751 00 38 04.11 +25 43 16.9 17.2 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35775 00 38 04.40 +25 43 25.2 17.1 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35798 00 38 04.52 +25 43 30.5 17.2 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35820 00 38 04.81 +25 43 39.2 17.1 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35843 00 38 05.02 +25 43 45.4 17.1 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35866 00 38 05.30 +25 43 51.9 16.9 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35911 00 38 05.70 +25 44 06.6 17.0 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35957 00 38 06.15 +25 44 21.0 16.9 718 EMM C2020 07 20.35979 00 38 06.35 +25 44 28.2 17.3 718 EMM C2020 07 20.36002 00 38 06.59 +25 44 34.7 17.2 718 EMM C2020 07 20.36025 00 38 06.84 +25 44 42.3 17.1 718 EMM C2020 07 20.36047 00 38 07.03 +25 44 49.0 17.1 718 EMM C2020 07 20.36071 00 38 07.20 +25 44 57.0 16.8 718 EMM C2020 07 20.36162 00 38 08.08 +25 45 24.5 17.1 718 EMM C2020 07 20.36184 00 38 08.25 +25 45 31.1 17.2 718 EMM C2020 07 20.36207 00 38 08.49 +25 45 37.6 17.0 718 EMM C2020 07 20.36229 00 38 08.73 +25 45 44.9 17.3 718 EMM C2020 07 20.36252 00 38 08.97 +25 45 51.7 17.0 718 EMM C2020 07 20.36275 00 38 09.17 +25 45 58.7 17.2 718 From pluto at projectpluto.com Thu Jul 23 14:06:24 2020 From: pluto at projectpluto.com (Bill Gray) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:06:24 -0400 Subject: [neo_followup] Tianwen-1 guesstimated orbit Message-ID: <4070005d-0861-dbd4-295f-9ad76b7e0726@projectpluto.com> Hi folks, Cut-and-paste the following synthetic "observations" into Find_Orb, and you should be able to get ephemerides for this object which, I hope, will not be too laughably wrong. I'm working from limited data here. I know when the object was launched, and I am reasonably certain that it went into an orbit with an inclination of about 30 degrees. At the southern end of that orbit about 40 minutes later, it then accelerated into an orbit that should get it to Mars in mid-February 2021 (the orbit below corresponds to arriving on 2021 Feb 17). Given that guesswork, ephemerides computed from this may be right on the nose. Or they could be several degrees off; I really have almost no way of knowing, given the usual lack of information from the China National Space Agency. I added a magnitude to give us an H=27 object, which should match the booster pretty well; the spacecraft itself is apt to be several magnitudes fainter. -- Bill Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.90000000 34 35.409+27 16 00.63 SynthJ95 Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.00000000 36 06.923+27 39 55.95 SynthJ95 Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.10000000 36 15.306+27 56 26.04 SynthJ95 Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.20000000 39 33.283+27 53 19.52 Synth703 Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.30000000 40 19.638+28 11 24.54 Synth703 Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.40000000 39 50.006+28 24 18.52 Synth703 Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.50000000 38 45.602+28 29 27.62 Synth703 Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.70000000 30 34.371+26 59 43.86 SynthC42 Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.80000000 32 10.944+27 35 22.19 SynthC42 Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.90000000 32 03.001+27 55 08.90 SynthC42 Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.70000000 31 32.802+27 09 40.91 SynthN55 Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.80000000 33 16.512+27 47 35.50 SynthN55 Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.90000000 32 51.951+28 09 23.93 15.9 V SynthN55 From pluto at projectpluto.com Thu Jul 23 16:07:32 2020 From: pluto at projectpluto.com (Bill Gray) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 16:07:32 -0400 Subject: [neo_followup] Tianwen-1 guesstimated orbit In-Reply-To: <4070005d-0861-dbd4-295f-9ad76b7e0726@projectpluto.com> References: <4070005d-0861-dbd4-295f-9ad76b7e0726@projectpluto.com> Message-ID: <3f2d9fff-a820-935d-ac55-36c6843b7b98@projectpluto.com> Hi all, We now have a few observations of the booster, and... turns out I was off by about 15 degrees! My apologies if any of you tried to get the object based on what I sent out. Following is revised synthetic astrometry, based on the few observations we have, but with the orbit adjusted by 0.34 sigmas to pass closer to Mars. Uncertainties are currently about 15', growing to about 40' by 0:00 UT on the 25th (but by then, we may have more data, possibly including the spacecraft as well.) Cut-and-paste into Find_Orb for ephemerides. -- Bill Tianwe1 C2020 07 23.70000000 41 55.733+13 30 06.07 15.5 V SynthN55 Tianwe1 C2020 07 23.80000000 43 26.288+14 13 09.71 15.9 V SynthN55 Tianwe1 C2020 07 23.90000000 42 57.853+14 42 35.66 16.1 V SynthN55 Tianwe1 C2020 07 23.70000000 41 04.425+13 16 28.18 15.5 V SynthC42 Tianwe1 C2020 07 23.80000000 42 26.258+13 59 32.17 15.8 V SynthC42 Tianwe1 C2020 07 23.90000000 42 11.406+14 28 39.94 16.1 V SynthC42 Tianwe1 C2020 07 24.70000000 51 10.569+15 39 34.93 17.7 V SynthC42 Tianwe1 C2020 07 24.80000000 51 11.255+15 49 13.06 17.8 V SynthC42 Tianwe1 C2020 07 24.90000000 50 36.317+15 56 12.82 17.9 V SynthC42 From pluto at projectpluto.com Fri Jul 24 10:12:05 2020 From: pluto at projectpluto.com (Bill Gray) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:12:05 -0400 Subject: [neo_followup] Tianwen-1 astrometry/ephemerides Message-ID: <041b3230-7f29-92fd-8790-94b56b6cba12@projectpluto.com> Hi folks, I've received astrometry for a Tianwen-1 object from Masayaki Suzuki at (I89) and Guy Wells and Daniel Bamberger at (Z80). The latter posted an image and some info at https://twitter.com/NBObservatories/status/1286470009947131904 The object has H=27, roughly what you'd expect for the booster, but I'm not entirely that it is. I'm labelling it as TianweA for the moment (MPC frowns on eight-character designations). Cut-and-paste this message, or at least the astrometry shown below, into https://www.projectpluto.com/fo.htm and you can get custom ephemerides for TianweA good to about an arcminute. (We also have some astrometry from ATLAS -- they caught the object early on and put it on NEOCP -- but it confuses Find_Orb and we really aren't supposed to distribute it anyway... fortunately, we don't absolutely need it in this case.) You'll see at the above Twitter post that NBO also spotted a second object, fainter by about three arcminutes, about 3.6' west and 3.6' north. They got one position, so this is awaiting confirmation; it might just be an artifact. I also have a report of yet _another_ object, roughly as bright as TianweA, but about 22' west and 25' to the south. Not enough astrometry for a reliable orbit, but I think if you look at that offset from TianweA, it should be easy to find. Seems there's been some tracking of the signal from the spacecraft : https://twitter.com/uhf_satcom https://twitter.com/df2mz which suggests to me that we'll be able to figure out which is the spacecraft and which is the booster, and possibly add some of their data to the mix. -- Bill COD I89 CON M. Suzuki, 9-12-17 Kouei-nishi-machi, Kitami-shi, Hokkaido 090-0058, Japan CON [mtnsuzuki at nifty.com] COM Tianwen-1 booster OBS M. Suzuki MEA M. Suzuki TEL 0.15-m f/7.3 refractor + CCD ACK I89 ART SAT Tianwen-1 booster 2020-07-24 11:39:00 Suzuki AC2 mtnsuzuki at nifty.com NET Gaia DR2 COM = TianweA Tianwen-1 C2020 07 24.09738 00 46 31.26 +14 59 59.3 15.7 G I89 Tianwen-1 C2020 07 24.10042 00 46 29.86 +15 00 30.6 15.9 G I89 Tianwen-1 C2020 07 24.10354 00 46 28.40 +15 01 02.1 15.7 G I89 Tianwen-1 C2020 07 24.10762 00 46 26.39 +15 01 42.7 15.9 G I89 ----- end ----- COM = TianweA # version=2017 # observatory ! mpcCode Z80 ! name Northolt Branch Observatory # submitter ! name D. Bamberger # observers ! name G. Wells # measurers ! name D. Bamberger # telescope ! design Ritchey-Chretien ! aperture 0.25 ! fRatio 8.0 ! detector CCD # software ! astrometry Astrometrica 4.12.0.448 ! photometry Astrometrica 4.12.0.448 permID |provID |trkSub |artSat |mode|stn |obsTime |ra |dec |rmsRA|rmsDec|astCat |mag |rmsMag|band|photCat |photAp|logSNR|seeing|exp |rmsFit|nStars|notes|remarks | | Probe2| | CCD|Z80 |2020-07-23T23:42:43.0Z | 11.46081 |+14.40392 |0.23 |0.21 | Gaia2|15.5 |0.06 | G| Gaia2| 7.9 |1.59 |3.9 | 100|0.17 | 74|K | | | Probe2| | CCD|Z80 |2020-07-23T23:44:23.0Z | 11.46280 |+14.40863 |0.25 |0.23 | Gaia2|15.5 |0.06 | G| Gaia2| 7.9 |1.46 |4.0 | 100|0.19 | 76|K | | | Probe2| | CCD|Z80 |2020-07-23T23:46:03.1Z | 11.46494 |+14.41339 |0.23 |0.24 | Gaia2|15.6 |0.07 | G| Gaia2| 7.9 |1.46 |4.0 | 100|0.18 | 81|K | From pluto at projectpluto.com Fri Jul 24 11:59:51 2020 From: pluto at projectpluto.com (Bill Gray) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 11:59:51 -0400 Subject: [neo_followup] TianweB data Message-ID: <1416e749-eb48-d9cb-c04b-de7a9283659a@projectpluto.com> Hi folks, OK, we now have a bit more data on the second object mentioned in my previous message... run the following astrometry through Find_Orb, and you should get positions to within a couple of arcminutes. Both objects would, at present, miss Mars by a couple of million kilometers. I assume a correction maneuver will fix that. I still expect the radio data will let us say which of the two objects we're tracking is the spacecraft and which is the booster. -- Bill TianweB KC2020 07 24.06585200 46 11.114+14 37 57.91 15.1 G J04 TianweB KC2020 07 24.06818000 46 10.795+14 38 25.01 15.1 G J04 TianweB KC2020 07 24.07051300 46 10.420+14 38 51.92 15.1 G J04 TianweB KC2020 07 24.10567100 45 59.840+14 45 09.84 15.3 G J04 TianweB KC2020 07 24.10797700 45 58.885+14 45 32.72 15.2 G J04 TianweB KC2020 07 24.20525300 44 56.340+14 58 11.03 15.3 G J04 TianweB KC2020 07 24.20757100 44 54.591+14 58 24.01 15.4 G J04 From 4099wiggins at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 23:18:43 2020 From: 4099wiggins at gmail.com (Patrick Wiggins) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 21:18:43 -0600 Subject: [neo_followup] {MPML} Tianwen-1 astrometry/ephemerides In-Reply-To: <041b3230-7f29-92fd-8790-94b56b6cba12@projectpluto.com> References: <041b3230-7f29-92fd-8790-94b56b6cba12@projectpluto.com> Message-ID: <5548074A-701F-40E7-AB12-4553B823179A@gmail.com> I?m looking for it on JPL Horizon in hopes of imaging it from here at 718. But I can?t find Tianwen listed. Is it under another name? Thanks, patrick 718 > On 24 Jul 2020, at 08:12, Bill J. Gray wrote: > > Hi folks, > > I've received astrometry for a Tianwen-1 object from Masayaki > Suzuki at (I89) and Guy Wells and Daniel Bamberger at (Z80). The > latter posted an image and some info at > > https://twitter.com/NBObservatories/status/1286470009947131904 > > The object has H=27, roughly what you'd expect for the booster, > but I'm not entirely that it is. I'm labelling it as TianweA > for the moment (MPC frowns on eight-character designations). > > Cut-and-paste this message, or at least the astrometry shown > below, into > > https://www.projectpluto.com/fo.htm > > and you can get custom ephemerides for TianweA good to about an > arcminute. (We also have some astrometry from ATLAS -- they caught > the object early on and put it on NEOCP -- but it confuses Find_Orb > and we really aren't supposed to distribute it anyway... fortunately, > we don't absolutely need it in this case.) > > You'll see at the above Twitter post that NBO also spotted a > second object, fainter by about three arcminutes, about 3.6' > west and 3.6' north. They got one position, so this is awaiting > confirmation; it might just be an artifact. > > I also have a report of yet _another_ object, roughly as > bright as TianweA, but about 22' west and 25' to the south. Not > enough astrometry for a reliable orbit, but I think if you look > at that offset from TianweA, it should be easy to find. > > Seems there's been some tracking of the signal from the > spacecraft : > > https://twitter.com/uhf_satcom > https://twitter.com/df2mz > > which suggests to me that we'll be able to figure out which > is the spacecraft and which is the booster, and possibly add > some of their data to the mix. > > -- Bill > > COD I89 > CON M. Suzuki, 9-12-17 Kouei-nishi-machi, Kitami-shi, Hokkaido 090-0058, Japan > CON [mtnsuzuki at nifty.com] > COM Tianwen-1 booster > OBS M. Suzuki > MEA M. Suzuki > TEL 0.15-m f/7.3 refractor + CCD > ACK I89 ART SAT Tianwen-1 booster 2020-07-24 11:39:00 Suzuki > AC2 mtnsuzuki at nifty.com > NET Gaia DR2 > COM = TianweA > Tianwen-1 C2020 07 24.09738 00 46 31.26 +14 59 59.3 15.7 G I89 > Tianwen-1 C2020 07 24.10042 00 46 29.86 +15 00 30.6 15.9 G I89 > Tianwen-1 C2020 07 24.10354 00 46 28.40 +15 01 02.1 15.7 G I89 > Tianwen-1 C2020 07 24.10762 00 46 26.39 +15 01 42.7 15.9 G I89 > ----- end ----- > > > COM = TianweA > # version=2017 > # observatory > ! mpcCode Z80 > ! name Northolt Branch Observatory > # submitter > ! name D. Bamberger > # observers > ! name G. Wells > # measurers > ! name D. Bamberger > # telescope > ! design Ritchey-Chretien > ! aperture 0.25 > ! fRatio 8.0 > ! detector CCD > # software > ! astrometry Astrometrica 4.12.0.448 > ! photometry Astrometrica 4.12.0.448 > permID |provID |trkSub |artSat |mode|stn |obsTime |ra |dec |rmsRA|rmsDec|astCat |mag |rmsMag|band|photCat |photAp|logSNR|seeing|exp |rmsFit|nStars|notes|remarks > | | Probe2| | CCD|Z80 |2020-07-23T23:42:43.0Z | 11.46081 |+14.40392 |0.23 |0.21 | Gaia2|15.5 |0.06 | G| Gaia2| 7.9 |1.59 |3.9 | 100|0.17 | 74|K | > | | Probe2| | CCD|Z80 |2020-07-23T23:44:23.0Z | 11.46280 |+14.40863 |0.25 |0.23 | Gaia2|15.5 |0.06 | G| Gaia2| 7.9 |1.46 |4.0 | 100|0.19 | 76|K | > | | Probe2| | CCD|Z80 |2020-07-23T23:46:03.1Z | 11.46494 |+14.41339 |0.23 |0.24 | Gaia2|15.6 |0.07 | G| Gaia2| 7.9 |1.46 |4.0 | 100|0.18 | 81|K | > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. > > View/Reply Online (#35659): https://groups.io/g/mpml/message/35659 > Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/75766910/2702017 > -=-=- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Posts to this list or information found within may be freely used, with the stipulation that MPML and the originating author are cited as the source of the information. > -=-=- > Group Owner: mpml+owner at groups.io > Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/mpml/unsub [4099wiggins at gmail.com] > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > From 4099wiggins at gmail.com Sat Jul 25 08:10:48 2020 From: 4099wiggins at gmail.com (Patrick Wiggins) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 06:10:48 -0600 Subject: [neo_followup] {MPML} Tianwen-1 guesstimated orbit In-Reply-To: <4070005d-0861-dbd4-295f-9ad76b7e0726@projectpluto.com> References: <4070005d-0861-dbd4-295f-9ad76b7e0726@projectpluto.com> Message-ID: Here?s what I got this morning despite lots of clouds. (I?ve posted an animation made from the images to my Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/patrick.wiggins.71 ) patrick 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.44727 00 52 28.46 +16 07 18.0 16.9 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.44766 00 52 28.30 +16 07 18.1 16.8 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.44883 00 52 27.80 +16 07 21.0 16.8 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.44922 00 52 27.64 +16 07 21.9 16.9 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.44960 00 52 27.50 +16 07 22.5 16.7 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.44999 00 52 27.33 +16 07 23.6 16.8 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45117 00 52 26.85 +16 07 25.6 16.8 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45155 00 52 26.68 +16 07 26.5 16.8 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45194 00 52 26.54 +16 07 26.9 16.9 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45350 00 52 25.87 +16 07 30.3 16.7 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45389 00 52 25.70 +16 07 31.2 16.8 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45427 00 52 25.56 +16 07 31.8 16.9 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45466 00 52 25.39 +16 07 32.7 16.7 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45584 00 52 24.95 +16 07 34.5 16.9 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45623 00 52 24.76 +16 07 35.6 16.7 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45662 00 52 24.59 +16 07 36.1 16.8 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45701 00 52 24.42 +16 07 37.2 16.8 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45817 00 52 23.93 +16 07 39.3 16.7 718 Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45856 00 52 23.77 +16 07 40.5 16.7 718 > On 23 Jul 2020, at 12:06, Bill J. Gray wrote: > > Hi folks, > > Cut-and-paste the following synthetic "observations" into > Find_Orb, and you should be able to get ephemerides for this > object which, I hope, will not be too laughably wrong. > > I'm working from limited data here. I know when the object > was launched, and I am reasonably certain that it went into an > orbit with an inclination of about 30 degrees. At the southern > end of that orbit about 40 minutes later, it then accelerated > into an orbit that should get it to Mars in mid-February 2021 > (the orbit below corresponds to arriving on 2021 Feb 17). > > Given that guesswork, ephemerides computed from this may be > right on the nose. Or they could be several degrees off; I > really have almost no way of knowing, given the usual lack of > information from the China National Space Agency. > > I added a magnitude to give us an H=27 object, which should > match the booster pretty well; the spacecraft itself is apt > to be several magnitudes fainter. > > -- Bill > > Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.90000000 34 35.409+27 16 00.63 SynthJ95 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.00000000 36 06.923+27 39 55.95 SynthJ95 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.10000000 36 15.306+27 56 26.04 SynthJ95 > > Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.20000000 39 33.283+27 53 19.52 Synth703 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.30000000 40 19.638+28 11 24.54 Synth703 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.40000000 39 50.006+28 24 18.52 Synth703 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.50000000 38 45.602+28 29 27.62 Synth703 > > Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.70000000 30 34.371+26 59 43.86 SynthC42 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.80000000 32 10.944+27 35 22.19 SynthC42 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.90000000 32 03.001+27 55 08.90 SynthC42 > > Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.70000000 31 32.802+27 09 40.91 SynthN55 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.80000000 33 16.512+27 47 35.50 SynthN55 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.90000000 32 51.951+28 09 23.93 15.9 V SynthN55 > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. > > View/Reply Online (#35657): https://groups.io/g/mpml/message/35657 > Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/75751661/2702017 > -=-=- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Posts to this list or information found within may be freely used, with the stipulation that MPML and the originating author are cited as the source of the information. > -=-=- > Group Owner: mpml+owner at groups.io > Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/mpml/unsub [4099wiggins at gmail.com] > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > From pluto at projectpluto.com Sat Jul 25 09:55:07 2020 From: pluto at projectpluto.com (Bill Gray) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 09:55:07 -0400 Subject: [neo_followup] {MPML} Tianwen-1 guesstimated orbit In-Reply-To: References: <4070005d-0861-dbd4-295f-9ad76b7e0726@projectpluto.com> Message-ID: <44b49a83-a8e8-f508-aaca-d2ae1b6b257e@projectpluto.com> Hi Patrick, Sorry for the late reply! Time zones work against us here (I'm two hours east of you); I'm apt to be sleeping while you're observing. For future reference... there are two ways you could go about getting topocentric positions. One would be to take the geocentric ephemerides and aim slightly closer to the horizon. At the time you observed the object, it was about twice as far from us as the moon, and could have been as much as half a degree closer to the horizon than the geocentric ephems would tell you. The geocentric ephems will put you on the right spot in azimuth; it's just the altitude that will need to be decreased. Since it was about 60 degrees above your horizon, the "drop" was actually about cos(60) = 1/2 of that, or about a quarter degree closer to the horizon... which would have put it just outside your 18' x 26' FOV; did you have to hunt around a little? The generalized version of this would be : if it's at the distance of the moon (about 400000 km) and rising or setting, drop one degree closer to the horizon. If it's further or closer, adjust accordingly; for example, at ten times that distance, you only have to drop a tenth as much, or 6'. Few of us would try to observe at the horizon, so the "drop distance" would be multiplied by the cosine of your altitude above the horizon. You can also generalize this to say that, with your FoV, if the object is more than about a million km away, you can probably use geocentric ephems and still find the object; even closer than that if the object is near the zenith. The alternative, usually easier method will be to copy the observations from the pseudo-MPEC or other source, go to the on-line Find_Orb, paste them in, and generate ephemerides for your particular location and desired time span. -- Bill On 7/25/20 8:10 AM, Patrick Wiggins wrote: > Here?s what I got this morning despite lots of clouds. (I?ve posted an animation made from the images to my Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/patrick.wiggins.71 ) > > patrick > 718 > > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.44727 00 52 28.46 +16 07 18.0 16.9 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.44766 00 52 28.30 +16 07 18.1 16.8 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.44883 00 52 27.80 +16 07 21.0 16.8 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.44922 00 52 27.64 +16 07 21.9 16.9 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.44960 00 52 27.50 +16 07 22.5 16.7 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.44999 00 52 27.33 +16 07 23.6 16.8 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45117 00 52 26.85 +16 07 25.6 16.8 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45155 00 52 26.68 +16 07 26.5 16.8 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45194 00 52 26.54 +16 07 26.9 16.9 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45350 00 52 25.87 +16 07 30.3 16.7 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45389 00 52 25.70 +16 07 31.2 16.8 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45427 00 52 25.56 +16 07 31.8 16.9 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45466 00 52 25.39 +16 07 32.7 16.7 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45584 00 52 24.95 +16 07 34.5 16.9 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45623 00 52 24.76 +16 07 35.6 16.7 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45662 00 52 24.59 +16 07 36.1 16.8 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45701 00 52 24.42 +16 07 37.2 16.8 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45817 00 52 23.93 +16 07 39.3 16.7 718 > Tianwen1 C2020 07 25.45856 00 52 23.77 +16 07 40.5 16.7 718 > > >> On 23 Jul 2020, at 12:06, Bill J. Gray wrote: >> >> Hi folks, >> >> Cut-and-paste the following synthetic "observations" into >> Find_Orb, and you should be able to get ephemerides for this >> object which, I hope, will not be too laughably wrong. >> >> I'm working from limited data here. I know when the object >> was launched, and I am reasonably certain that it went into an >> orbit with an inclination of about 30 degrees. At the southern >> end of that orbit about 40 minutes later, it then accelerated >> into an orbit that should get it to Mars in mid-February 2021 >> (the orbit below corresponds to arriving on 2021 Feb 17). >> >> Given that guesswork, ephemerides computed from this may be >> right on the nose. Or they could be several degrees off; I >> really have almost no way of knowing, given the usual lack of >> information from the China National Space Agency. >> >> I added a magnitude to give us an H=27 object, which should >> match the booster pretty well; the spacecraft itself is apt >> to be several magnitudes fainter. >> >> -- Bill >> >> Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.90000000 34 35.409+27 16 00.63 SynthJ95 >> Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.00000000 36 06.923+27 39 55.95 SynthJ95 >> Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.10000000 36 15.306+27 56 26.04 SynthJ95 >> >> Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.20000000 39 33.283+27 53 19.52 Synth703 >> Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.30000000 40 19.638+28 11 24.54 Synth703 >> Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.40000000 39 50.006+28 24 18.52 Synth703 >> Tianwen1 C2020 07 24.50000000 38 45.602+28 29 27.62 Synth703 >> >> Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.70000000 30 34.371+26 59 43.86 SynthC42 >> Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.80000000 32 10.944+27 35 22.19 SynthC42 >> Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.90000000 32 03.001+27 55 08.90 SynthC42 >> >> Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.70000000 31 32.802+27 09 40.91 SynthN55 >> Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.80000000 33 16.512+27 47 35.50 SynthN55 >> Tianwen1 C2020 07 23.90000000 32 51.951+28 09 23.93 15.9 V SynthN55 >> >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >> Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. >> >> View/Reply Online (#35657): https://groups.io/g/mpml/message/35657 >> Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/75751661/2702017 >> -=-=- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> Posts to this list or information found within may be freely used, with the stipulation that MPML and the originating author are cited as the source of the information. >> -=-=- >> Group Owner: mpml+owner at groups.io >> Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/mpml/unsub [4099wiggins at gmail.com] >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >> > From pluto at projectpluto.com Sat Jul 25 20:43:26 2020 From: pluto at projectpluto.com (Bill Gray) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 20:43:26 -0400 Subject: [neo_followup] Pseudo-MPECs for Tianwen-1, EMM, and their boosters Message-ID: Hi folks, I've posted pseudo-MPECs for EMM (Hope) and its booster : https://www.projectpluto.com/pluto/mpecs/20047a.htm https://www.projectpluto.com/pluto/mpecs/20047b.htm and for the two Tianwen-1 objects : https://www.projectpluto.com/pluto/mpecs/tianwea.htm https://www.projectpluto.com/pluto/mpecs/tianweb.htm (All of them already in need of updating. Except for the EMM spacecraft, which is down to about mag 23; we've gotten all the data on it that I expect to see. I'll hold off a bit; more data may come in from observers in Europe over the next few hours.) -- Bill From pluto at projectpluto.com Thu Jul 30 10:30:34 2020 From: pluto at projectpluto.com (Bill Gray) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 10:30:34 -0400 Subject: [neo_followup] Mars Perseverance astrometry Message-ID: Hi folks, My third and last request for data on a Mars mission... We have nominal ephemerides for the spacecraft from JPL's Horizons system : https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons_news Observability should resemble that for Tianwen-1 and EMM; the objects will be in the same general area of the sky, reasonably easy to observe for Northern Hemispherians. As with those two earlier missions, we'll have to figure out where the boosters are (and any other bits that fall off) ourselves. As far as I know, no Mars mission hardware has come back and been observed. But except for the bits that stay at Mars, the rest is usually in an orbit where it could come back and be observed, and we probably couldn't tell that it wasn't a rock; the speed would resemble that of a natural object. For example, if Tianwen-1 should fail for any reason, it'll be quite visible from the Southern Hemisphere in July 2023. So your data matters. -- Bill From yahoo at jostjahn.de Thu Jul 30 19:53:09 2020 From: yahoo at jostjahn.de (Jost Jahn) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 01:53:09 +0200 Subject: [neo_followup] Mars Perseverance astrometry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9b64dc1e-6b56-c918-bdc5-fb75b09c1ff5@jostjahn.de> I could image it too, bright and easy Mars20 C2020 07 30.93825200 17 47.46 +20 49 03.2 15.2 G C95 Mars20 C2020 07 30.93982600 17 49.72 +20 49 55.4 15.1 G C95 Mars20 C2020 07 30.94138900 17 51.93 +20 50 45.1 15.1 G C95 Mars20 C2020 07 30.94295100 17 54.08 +20 51 35.8 15.0 G C95 Mars20 C2020 07 30.94450200 17 56.14 +20 52 24.9 15.3 G C95 Mars20 C2020 07 30.94604200 17 58.28 +20 53 14.9 15.1 G C95 Mars20 C2020 07 30.94761600 18 00.30 +20 54 04.2 15.1 G C95 Mars20 C2020 07 30.94916700 18 02.29 +20 54 52.8 15.2 G C95 Mars20 C2020 07 30.95074100 18 04.22 +20 55 40.9 15.0 G C95 Mars20 C2020 07 30.95230300 18 06.07 +20 56 28.7 15.1 G C95 Jost On 30.07.2020 16:30, Bill Gray wrote: > Hi folks, > > ?? My third and last request for data on a Mars mission... > > ?? We have nominal ephemerides for the spacecraft from JPL's > Horizons system : > > https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons_news > > ?? Observability should resemble that for Tianwen-1 and EMM; > the objects will be in the same general area of the sky, > reasonably easy to observe for Northern Hemispherians.? As > with those two earlier missions,? we'll have to figure out > where the boosters are (and any other bits that fall off) > ourselves. > > ?? As far as I know,? no Mars mission hardware has come back > and been observed.? But except for the bits that stay at Mars, > the rest is usually in an orbit where it could come back and > be observed,? and we probably couldn't tell that it wasn't > a rock;? the speed would resemble that of a natural object. > For example,? if Tianwen-1 should fail for any reason,? it'll > be quite visible from the Southern Hemisphere in July 2023. > So your data matters. > > -- Bill > From 4099wiggins at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 03:03:18 2020 From: 4099wiggins at gmail.com (Patrick Wiggins) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 01:03:18 -0600 Subject: [neo_followup] {MPML} Mars Perseverance astrometry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ephemerides on JPL Horizons for the spacecraft are spot on. I?m tracking it now. Anyone here know if the booster is also on Horizons? (I looked but no luck.) Alternatively, how far and in what direction is the booster currently away from the spacecraft? Thanks! patrick 718 > On 30 Jul 2020, at 08:30, Bill J. Gray wrote: > > Hi folks, > > My third and last request for data on a Mars mission... > > We have nominal ephemerides for the spacecraft from JPL's > Horizons system : > > https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons_news > > Observability should resemble that for Tianwen-1 and EMM; > the objects will be in the same general area of the sky, > reasonably easy to observe for Northern Hemispherians. As > with those two earlier missions, we'll have to figure out > where the boosters are (and any other bits that fall off) > ourselves. > > As far as I know, no Mars mission hardware has come back > and been observed. But except for the bits that stay at Mars, > the rest is usually in an orbit where it could come back and > be observed, and we probably couldn't tell that it wasn't > a rock; the speed would resemble that of a natural object. > For example, if Tianwen-1 should fail for any reason, it'll > be quite visible from the Southern Hemisphere in July 2023. > So your data matters. > > -- Bill > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. > > View/Reply Online (#35685): https://groups.io/g/mpml/message/35685 > Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/75887262/2702017 > -=-=- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Posts to this list or information found within may be freely used, with the stipulation that MPML and the originating author are cited as the source of the information. > -=-=- > Group Owner: mpml+owner at groups.io > Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/mpml/unsub [4099wiggins at gmail.com] > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > From peter at birtwhistle.org.uk Fri Jul 31 03:15:25 2020 From: peter at birtwhistle.org.uk (Peter Birtwhistle) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 08:15:25 +0100 Subject: [neo_followup] {MPML} Mars Perseverance astrometry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0b4a126c-1daf-f9eb-ba2e-899f56a18063@birtwhistle.org.uk> Hi Patrick, You can put the astrometry from Bill's page https://www.projectpluto.com/pluto/mpecs/20052b.htm into FindOrb and generate an ephemeris for the booster. For you at 718 it is currently about 33 arcmin W and 6 arcmin N of the probe. Peter J95 On 31/07/2020 08:03, Wiggins Patrick wrote: > Ephemerides on JPL Horizons for the spacecraft are spot on. I?m tracking it now. > > Anyone here know if the booster is also on Horizons? (I looked but no luck.) > > Alternatively, how far and in what direction is the booster currently away from the spacecraft? > > Thanks! > > patrick > 718 > >> On 30 Jul 2020, at 08:30, Bill J. Gray wrote: >> >> Hi folks, >> >> My third and last request for data on a Mars mission... >> >> We have nominal ephemerides for the spacecraft from JPL's >> Horizons system : >> >> https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons_news >> >> Observability should resemble that for Tianwen-1 and EMM; >> the objects will be in the same general area of the sky, >> reasonably easy to observe for Northern Hemispherians. As >> with those two earlier missions, we'll have to figure out >> where the boosters are (and any other bits that fall off) >> ourselves. >> >> As far as I know, no Mars mission hardware has come back >> and been observed. But except for the bits that stay at Mars, >> the rest is usually in an orbit where it could come back and >> be observed, and we probably couldn't tell that it wasn't >> a rock; the speed would resemble that of a natural object. >> For example, if Tianwen-1 should fail for any reason, it'll >> be quite visible from the Southern Hemisphere in July 2023. >> So your data matters. >> >> -- Bill >> >> >> > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. > > View/Reply Online (#35706): https://groups.io/g/mpml/message/35706 > Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/75887262/1447918 > -=-=- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Posts to this list or information found within may be freely used, with the stipulation that MPML and the originating author are cited as the source of the information. > -=-=- > Group Owner: mpml+owner at groups.io > Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/mpml/unsub [peter at birtwhistle.org.uk] > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > . From 4099wiggins at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 03:21:06 2020 From: 4099wiggins at gmail.com (Patrick Wiggins) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 01:21:06 -0600 Subject: [neo_followup] {MPML} Mars Perseverance astrometry In-Reply-To: <0b4a126c-1daf-f9eb-ba2e-899f56a18063@birtwhistle.org.uk> References: <0b4a126c-1daf-f9eb-ba2e-899f56a18063@birtwhistle.org.uk> Message-ID: <5876770C-FBFB-47C4-9BC5-3C24260068CE@gmail.com> Hi Peter, As it happens I received an email from Markus Kempf qwith similar data and, sure enough, that?s where I found it. And much brighter than the spacecraft. patrick :) > On 31 Jul 2020, at 01:15, Peter Birtwhistle wrote: > > Hi Patrick, > > You can put the astrometry from Bill's page https://www.projectpluto.com/pluto/mpecs/20052b.htm into FindOrb and generate an ephemeris for the booster. > > For you at 718 it is currently about 33 arcmin W and 6 arcmin N of the probe. > > Peter > J95 > > > On 31/07/2020 08:03, Wiggins Patrick wrote: >> Ephemerides on JPL Horizons for the spacecraft are spot on. I?m tracking it now. >> >> Anyone here know if the booster is also on Horizons? (I looked but no luck.) >> >> Alternatively, how far and in what direction is the booster currently away from the spacecraft? >> >> Thanks! >> >> patrick >> 718 >> >>> On 30 Jul 2020, at 08:30, Bill J. Gray wrote: >>> >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> My third and last request for data on a Mars mission... >>> >>> We have nominal ephemerides for the spacecraft from JPL's >>> Horizons system : >>> >>> https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons_news >>> >>> Observability should resemble that for Tianwen-1 and EMM; >>> the objects will be in the same general area of the sky, >>> reasonably easy to observe for Northern Hemispherians. As >>> with those two earlier missions, we'll have to figure out >>> where the boosters are (and any other bits that fall off) >>> ourselves. >>> >>> As far as I know, no Mars mission hardware has come back >>> and been observed. But except for the bits that stay at Mars, >>> the rest is usually in an orbit where it could come back and >>> be observed, and we probably couldn't tell that it wasn't >>> a rock; the speed would resemble that of a natural object. >>> For example, if Tianwen-1 should fail for any reason, it'll >>> be quite visible from the Southern Hemisphere in July 2023. >>> So your data matters. >>> >>> -- Bill >>> >>> >>> >> >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >> Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. >> >> View/Reply Online (#35706): https://groups.io/g/mpml/message/35706 >> Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/75887262/1447918 >> -=-=- >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> Posts to this list or information found within may be freely used, with the stipulation that MPML and the originating author are cited as the source of the information. >> -=-=- >> Group Owner: mpml+owner at groups.io >> Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/mpml/unsub [peter at birtwhistle.org.uk] >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >> >> . > From 4099wiggins at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 06:06:33 2020 From: 4099wiggins at gmail.com (Patrick Wiggins) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 04:06:33 -0600 Subject: [neo_followup] {MPML} Mars Perseverance astrometry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My data are appended below. And as with my previous images of the Tianwen and EMM I?ve compiled my Mars 2020 images into animations and posted them on my personal Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/patrick.wiggins.71 > On 30 Jul 2020, at 08:30, Bill J. Gray wrote: > > Hi folks, > > My third and last request for data on a Mars mission... > > We have nominal ephemerides for the spacecraft from JPL's > Horizons system : > > https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons_news > > Observability should resemble that for Tianwen-1 and EMM; > the objects will be in the same general area of the sky, > reasonably easy to observe for Northern Hemispherians. As > with those two earlier missions, we'll have to figure out > where the boosters are (and any other bits that fall off) > ourselves. > > As far as I know, no Mars mission hardware has come back > and been observed. But except for the bits that stay at Mars, > the rest is usually in an orbit where it could come back and > be observed, and we probably couldn't tell that it wasn't > a rock; the speed would resemble that of a natural object. > For example, if Tianwen-1 should fail for any reason, it'll > be quite visible from the Southern Hemisphere in July 2023. > So your data matters. > > -- Bill > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. > > View/Reply Online (#35685): https://groups.io/g/mpml/message/35685 > Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/75887262/2702017 > -=-=- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Posts to this list or information found within may be freely used, with the stipulation that MPML and the originating author are cited as the source of the information. > -=-=- > Group Owner: mpml+owner at groups.io > Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/mpml/unsub [4099wiggins at gmail.com] > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Atlas V C2020 07 31.30863 00 22 59.92 +22 15 21.9 14.8 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.30941 00 22 59.88 +22 15 31.9 14.7 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.31015 00 22 59.84 +22 15 40.8 14.9 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.31162 00 22 59.76 +22 15 59.2 14.9 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.31236 00 22 59.71 +22 16 08.6 14.9 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.31309 00 22 59.65 +22 16 17.4 14.9 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.31383 00 22 59.58 +22 16 26.8 15.0 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.31456 00 22 59.53 +22 16 35.5 14.8 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.31530 00 22 59.47 +22 16 44.9 14.9 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.31604 00 22 59.39 +22 16 53.8 14.8 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.31677 00 22 59.32 +22 17 03.0 15.0 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.31751 00 22 59.24 +22 17 11.7 14.8 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.31825 00 22 59.16 +22 17 20.7 15.0 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.31898 00 22 59.08 +22 17 29.4 14.9 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.31972 00 22 59.00 +22 17 37.9 15.0 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.32046 00 22 58.90 +22 17 47.2 14.8 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.32119 00 22 58.78 +22 17 56.0 15.0 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.32193 00 22 58.69 +22 18 04.7 14.8 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.32267 00 22 58.60 +22 18 13.4 15.0 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.32340 00 22 58.47 +22 18 22.2 14.8 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.32414 00 22 58.36 +22 18 30.8 15.0 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.32488 00 22 58.26 +22 18 39.5 14.8 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.32562 00 22 58.13 +22 18 48.2 14.9 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.32635 00 22 58.00 +22 18 56.6 14.8 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.32709 00 22 57.90 +22 19 05.4 14.9 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.32782 00 22 57.75 +22 19 13.6 14.8 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.32856 00 22 57.62 +22 19 22.2 14.9 718 Atlas V C2020 07 31.32930 00 22 57.49 +22 19 30.7 14.9 718 Persever C2020 07 31.34271 00 25 17.14 +22 16 17.7 16.1 718 Persever C2020 07 31.34345 00 25 16.93 +22 16 25.7 16.1 718 Persever C2020 07 31.34418 00 25 16.76 +22 16 33.5 16.0 718 Persever C2020 07 31.34492 00 25 16.55 +22 16 41.6 16.0 718 Persever C2020 07 31.34565 00 25 16.37 +22 16 49.0 16.0 718 Persever C2020 07 31.34639 00 25 16.16 +22 16 56.7 16.0 718 Persever C2020 07 31.34712 00 25 15.97 +22 17 04.4 16.1 718 Persever C2020 07 31.34786 00 25 15.77 +22 17 12.2 16.0 718 Persever C2020 07 31.34860 00 25 15.55 +22 17 19.9 16.1 718 Persever C2020 07 31.34933 00 25 15.35 +22 17 27.1 16.0 718 Persever C2020 07 31.35007 00 25 15.14 +22 17 35.1 16.1 718 Persever C2020 07 31.35081 00 25 14.93 +22 17 42.7 16.0 718 Persever C2020 07 31.35154 00 25 14.70 +22 17 50.4 16.0 718 Persever C2020 07 31.35228 00 25 14.50 +22 17 57.7 16.1 718 Persever C2020 07 31.35302 00 25 14.28 +22 18 05.2 16.0 718 Persever C2020 07 31.35376 00 25 14.04 +22 18 13.0 16.1 718 Persever C2020 07 31.35450 00 25 13.80 +22 18 20.2 16.1 718 Persever C2020 07 31.35523 00 25 13.57 +22 18 27.7 16.0 718 Persever C2020 07 31.35597 00 25 13.33 +22 18 35.1 16.1 718 Persever C2020 07 31.35671 00 25 13.11 +22 18 42.4 16.1 718 Persever C2020 07 31.35744 00 25 12.86 +22 18 49.6 16.1 718 Persever C2020 07 31.35818 00 25 12.62 +22 18 56.7 16.1 718 Persever C2020 07 31.35892 00 25 12.35 +22 19 04.3 16.1 718 Persever C2020 07 31.35965 00 25 12.10 +22 19 11.2 16.0 718 Persever C2020 07 31.36039 00 25 11.86 +22 19 18.6 16.0 718 Persever C2020 07 31.36113 00 25 11.60 +22 19 25.8 16.1 718 Persever C2020 07 31.36186 00 25 11.35 +22 19 33.1 16.1 718 Persever C2020 07 31.36260 00 25 11.09 +22 19 40.1 16.1 718